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Where are CHAIN's facts to back all the hysteria?

I LIKE to think I am a reasonable man and I want to hear all sides of the story before I make up my mind.

For example, much has been said and written about proposals for incinerators, waste-burning power stations etc in and around Northwich and Middlewich.

And here’s my view, for what it’s worth.

The protests from the anti-incinerator people of CHAIN have now reached such hysterical proportions they are doing its own cause great harm.

There are no facts, no figures, no research – just scaremongering and hysteria.

For example, every time CHAIN’s spokesman speaks on the subject, he ALWAYS seems to say the emissions and fly ash will be ‘toxic’ and ‘damage the health’ of people living in the shadow of the ‘massive, gigantic chimneys’ which will be built ‘almost in the town centre’. And don’t forget the ‘hundreds of extra lorry journeys’ bringing in the waste.

CHAIN claims the Covanta plant in Middlewich will be ‘twice the size of Wembley Stadium’. Covanta says it will be a 10th of the size. Someone’s ‘facts’ are wrong.

And CHAIN never lets us forget Brunner Mond’s owners are Indian, and based in Mumbai, or Covanta is an American company, although what this has to do with anything escapes me.

And let’s not forget that house prices in the area ‘will tumble’ if one or more of the plans goes ahead.

Sorry, CHAIN, but methinks you doth protest too much.

Where is your evidence all emissions and fly ash will be toxic?

Where is your evidence it will damage health?

Where is your evidence the chimneys will be massive?

Where is your evidence there will be hundreds of extra lorry journeys?

Where is your evidence about the size of either the Covanta or Brunner Mond incinerators?

I agree this part of Cheshire has more than its fair share of incinerator/power plant plans but what is needed is calm, rational discussion.

For example, Brunner Mond’s plans are to build a power station on the site of an existing disused power station. Anyone who bought a house near the Lostock works can hardly now start complaining they live near a chemical works.

And why would Brunner Mond, or anyone else on that site, elect to ship waste in by road when it has its own railhead?

The fact is we have to deal with our waste and incineration is a viable option. It is a well-used solution in countries with far more stringent environmental protection laws than ours.

I am a great advocate of recycling but it will be a long time before that has a real effect.

Try living near a landfill site, as I do, to see what that’s like – bad smells and flies during the summer and hundreds of massive lorries going to the site all day every day.

I’d swap the landfill site for a power from waste incinerator in a heartbeat.

But what I’d really like, before I make up my mind, is calm, factual evidence from both sides.

Just for the record, I don’t live in Northwich but I do spend every working day here and no, I do not work for Brunner Mond, Covanta, RRS or any other waste or chemical company.

KEVIN GREY Warrington

Comments(11)

Sue Statham says...
2:54pm Wed 17 Feb 10

What a great opportunity for a really good investigative journalist on a local paper, perhaps, to gather all the facts together and present them as "calm,factual evidence".
I am a member of CHAIN and we do not involve ourselves in scaremongering or hysteria. All the facts, figures and information given by CHAIN are well-documented. We do have a website. Just Google CHAIN (Cheshire anti-incinerator Network) There is a telephone number should you have any questions.
The Northwich and Middlewich Guardian would be an excellent means of publicising the whole picture of incineration. Pollution, traffic, health implications and house prices will have a profound effect on all it's readership.
So, instead of trying to malign CHAIN, perhaps Kevin Grey might benefit from being able to read a factual, unbiased report from our local media.
Will any reporter rise to the challenge?

underwhelmed says...
4:53pm Wed 17 Feb 10

Hi Kevin,

I too would love a rational debate however it’s probably too much to ask for. To answer some of your questions though, very briefly try the following....

Where is your evidence all emissions and fly ash will be toxic?
I don’t recall CHAIN stating that all emissions would be toxic however it is accepted and widely acknowledged (try Google for this) that the output from incinerator chimney stacks contain toxic substances and these can be hazardous to human health. With regards to fly ash, this is so toxic that it has to be removed in sealed containers and disposed of as toxic waste in specially controlled dumps.
Where is your evidence it will damage health?
The internet contains a myriad of papers on this subject - for now try this one http://linkinghub.el
sevier.com/retrieve/
pii/S030698778470675
X - the summary from “Incinerator toxic emissions: a brief summary of human health effects with a note on regulatory control” ‘- a concluding opinion is offered that it is inadvisable to engage in new incinerator construction with present knowledge and conditions.’ And that was just the first link I found. There are thousands more - please feel free to follow them and establish for yourself if there is a real or imagined health problem from incinerators.
Where is your evidence the chimneys will be massive?
Try Brunner Mond’s own proposals. They give the chimney heights. They even stated last week in the press that they would be no bigger than those that were there previously. If you can’t remember how big that was I have a photo somewhere I’ll happily post to show you.
Where is your evidence there will be hundreds of extra lorry journeys?
Again, from Brunner Mond’s proposals.
Where is your evidence about the size of either the Covanta or Brunner Mond incinerators?
Once again from both of their published proposals . The sizes are not in dispute - they have published them in their proposals. They are massive.
As to people who bought near the works, they would have every right to complain - currently the only output is steam - an incinerator is a whole new ball game. And as to why they would have to haul by road - they simply couldn’t bring it all in by rail. There isn’t an incinerator in the UK that can do that, even with a rail head as the waste comes from too many different places.
You are absolutely right that we do need to recycle more however given that Vale Royal (as was) has moved from virtually no recycling to almost 50% in three years means that I would have to disagree with you on this point. I think it has had a huge effect and will continue to do so.
I fully empathise with you if yo have to live near a landfill - it can’t be a pleasant experience. But before you swap please be aware that around 30% of all the waste that goes into an incinerator by volume comes out again as ash. And this ash has to go somewhere. Usually it gets taken by massive lorries to landfill sites..... It seems that the incinerator solution isn’t much better after all......
So, Sue is right - bring on the investigative journalism and let’s start by asking why we need this plant here. I’ve still seen no compelling reason why we need it.

Rick57 says...
5:44am Thu 18 Feb 10

Well said Kevin.

CHAIN has gone way over the top.

Hysterics like Liam Byrne need to take a rain check.

cheshirecat says...
11:42am Thu 18 Feb 10

"What did one Incinerator Chief say to the other Incinerator Chief?"

"I don't know, what did one Incinerator Chief say to the other Incinerator Chief?"

"Let's get our PR Teams to pretend to be 'ordinary blokes' who think that placing giant waste burning (outmoded ) Incinerators in the middle of population centres is a FABULOUS idea in the vain hope that the thousands of residents opposed to our schemes will suddenly change their minds."

Well, it's not the best joke I've ever heard but it certainly qualifies as comical.

Next!

Sue Statham says...
2:33pm Thu 18 Feb 10

Ricky57,Middlewich,
Liam Byrne is a well-respected and highly valued member of CHAIN. Liam, Brian Cartwright (our chairman) and Brian's wife Hilary are at the very heart of CHAIN. They, along with other CHAIN members, are working tirelessly towards their goal, which is to inform all Cheshire residents what the realities of building huge incinerators in their midst, on both a personal and environmental level, will be.
As you seem hell-bent on making a nonsense of all facts and figures researched by CHAIN, better to channel your energies into proving us wrong, rather than singling out members of our organisation for criticism. Sadly, I think you would find yourself on a hiding to nowhere.

cheshirecat says...
5:57pm Thu 18 Feb 10

Sue, don't waste time worrying about 'Rick57' who is, as we speak, probably sitting with Blackberry and Skinny Latte in a Manchester Starbucks 'checking out the local blogs' as part of their current PR brief. Poisonous nonsense such as this should be dismissed as an anomaly and is totally irrelevant. The irrefutable evidence of thousands of objection letters and the huge outpouring of opposition to the Incinerator proposals more than validates Chain's hard work and the ability of residents to effectively research and question such plans.

N&PHill says...
11:14am Sat 20 Feb 10

I read with anger and frustration the comments made by Kevin Grey of Warrington, who criticized the good work done by CHain and the residents of Middlewich & Northwich. All I can say is - Kevin, which CHain meetings have you been to? Because; if he'd actually been to any of them, he could have HEARD that Brain says "where incineration is concerned, there is doubt and where there is doubt there is risk" and I don't know about you Kevin, but I'm not prepared to let my family become a guinea pig just to meet government targets. Especially given that Covanta had receive fine after fine for being in breach of legal limits of toxic waste (this evidence is available on line by the way!). He could have also READ the evidence from a plethora of scientists and health organisations produced by chairman, Brian Cartwright. Brian formerly Managing Director of incineration plants, with over 30 senior management experience in the running and building of incinerators! As Brain has this experience, he knows how much waste per day will be needed to 'feed' the monster, from that make a simple calculation, it's not rocket science Kevin, it's called Maths! Besides which Kevin seems to contradict himself on that score, as he states 'hundreds of massive lorries going to site all day every day', Kevin, it seems you understand first hand the traffic chaos from waste plants, whether incineration or land fill. If he'd attended any of the CHain meetings Kevin would also be aware that Middlewich is having a land fill site and if we don't stop the incinerator Middlewich WILL HAVE BOTH!! If Kevin had actually looked in to the detail supplied by Covanta he would know that the chimney will be 80 meters high. With reference to the size of the site, it 's widely reported how big Wembley is and if you looked at the details of the proposed site you'd be able to see they are similar in size, again, you don't have to be a genius! Kevin's comments state he's not employed by either of the incineration companies, clearly he's not in the business of research as proved by his comments, however it does make me wonder weather he perhaps works on behalf of PR agencies behind the all the propaganda we receive from the incineration companies.

bonehead says...
5:19pm Mon 22 Feb 10

So CHAIN want a debate? I don't think so. Anyone who expresses an opposing perspective to CHAIN's blinkered, scare-mongering is accused of being payed by a PR company or worse still, in the pocket of an Indian businessman, or even worse still, of owning a Blackberry! CHAIN's arrogance in this argument is outrageous. I want to hear both sides in a sensible, rational discourse, I want proper science, I want to hear what Brunner Mond/Covanta,Bedknob
s and RRS say in reply to all this, I just want some order to this debate. Rediculous lists of sudo-science and geography and statistics drawn from God knows where are doing nothing to help the good folk of Northwich become informed.

Sue Statham says...
6:42pm Mon 22 Feb 10

This is what CHAIN has wanted all along.....to help the good folk of Northwich become informed. I have actually asked that a Northwich Guardian reporter undertake to research an unbiased report about incineration and its effects on local communities. Having read the letter from a Mr. Grey from Warrington in last week's paper, I was amazed by his total lack of knowledge of the subject-matter. This was a prime example of a little (or no) knowledge being a dangerous thing.
By all means lets have all the facts and then local people will be able to come to their own conclusions.
The truth is a very powerful thing, and that is what the people of mid-Cheshire deserve.
I do hope that our local newspaper is up for the research!

redviking says...
7:31pm Sat 6 Mar 10

I'm sorry but some of the comments that are stated by CHAIN members are so false and untrue. It is merely scaremongering the public.
Firstly, the chairman of CHAIN is an ex director of an incineration company....totally hypocrytical. I have seen mentioned that the number of HGV's on the road would amount to 500 per day!.. if that is the case the proposed amount of waste per year for the incinerator would be approx 6 million tonnes! Ridiculous......also the picture that CHAIN wanted you to see of the size of the building is pathetic, totally out of scale and false. They are looking at the idea of building the incinerator in the shell of the existing old power station, the one that people dont seem to care about the size of! Modern incinerators are far more efficient and well-designed than those of only 15 years ago......According to a recent report by the Health Protection Agency (HPA), air pollution expressed in volumes of what’s called particulate matter is a tiny fraction of that caused by the exhaust fumes from cars and lorries....Burn it, don’t bury it is the new catchphrase: as you say, we can’t go on shoving our refuse into holes in the ground. Landfill creates large amounts of methane, one of the most potent of greenhouse gases....CHAIN just dont give the real facts, they dont want an incinerator and they scare people into a false mindset. The fact is the government are all for them, now that Brunner Mond and Eon are footing the bill for this project so it looks like its going to happen!

tedrobphoto says...
8:11pm Sat 13 Mar 10

Yes, Brunner Mond (Tata) and Eon are footing the bill in order make lots of money in the future in the guise of being environmentally friendly, but instead proposing to spread the POISONS over the area that is not really understood by those in the outfall (ie Knutsford, Wilmslow Pickmere etc AND BACKED BY THEIR OWN MP, George Osborne who has stated in the near past he wishes to ENCOURAGE Private Enterprise, ACTUALLY QUOTING "Brunner Mond" as his example! What chance, therefore have the protestors if our own MP is backing the Lostock Incinerator?

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